The recent North American Bat Symposium at Illinois Wesleyan University in Bloomington couldn't have come at a better time! Hot on the heels of the completion of our successful gating project at the BlackBall Mine, comes an international conference of bat scientists, who are told all about the NNG, and our project is held up as a perfect example of how government, industry, and citizen volunteer groups can form partnerships and get things done to everyone's mutual benefit. And about fifty of them went on a field trip to see the results of the project after the conference ended. I suppose we can be excused if we do a little chest-puffing, especially NNG President John Marquart, who built the bridges that brought these various agencies together.
Well, the cold wind is starting to blow, and that means that we'll be having fewer trips to go on for the next few months. A weekend at Mammoth Cave should provide a break in the monotony! A firm date should be available soon for our working weekend at THE cave. The MAMMOTH cave. Let's try to get a bunch of us on the bandwagon!
This meeting we will elect our officers for the next year. The current officers have been renominated for another term. At the last meeting, the floor was opened for further nominations, but since none were made, we will not send ballots in the newsletter this time around. We must also make plans for our public meeting in January. I understand that the president has talked to Illinois Wesleyan biologist Tom Griffiths about possibly giving his "Bats in Illinois" presentation. If he agrees, we will have an excellent program to promote.
I saw a rather sad thing today. Each month, the NSS sends grotto secretaries listings of address changes, new members, and members who have been dropped or reinstated. On the list of members who have been dropped was the name of Armin Krueger. Odd. Of course, since he's no longer with us, they would have to drop him from the list of active members, but I had never even thought about it until I scanned the list. It rather rang the final chime for me. Good-bye, Armin. I'll see you in the cave.
I was interested in the results of the survey that Beth did which solicited opinions from the members about the content and timing of our meetings. There were good ideas offered along with constructive criticism, and the feeling that I got was that, although we may need a bit of fine-tuning here and there, overall things are in pretty good shape. On the question of the desired length of the business part of the meetings, six voted for 45 minutes, seven for one hour. The members taking part in the survey unanimously agreed that it is useful to have a meeting agenda handed out so that we have an order to follow and can take notes. The post-meeting program length vote was rather evenly split between 45 minutes and one hour. Seven thought that we should have a program of some kind each meeting, while five voted for every other meeting. When asked "Who should present the programs?", members said that it should be about 70% by members, and 30% outside speakers, which is about percentage that we are doing. The content of the programs should be 30% on science/education, 45% on caving skills/equipment and 22% on trip reports. Some specific suggestions made for programs were: contact with other grottos, more programs on caving skills and equipment, cave surveying, photography, slides, movies, humorous, strictly social, first aid, educational. The one suggestion out of all of these that struck me was, "strictly social". In the hustle and bustle of getting the meeting started more or less on time, and getting through the program, and then running out to Tobin's for pizza, I find that often I just don't have enough time to talk to all the people that I want to talk with, and it's hard to talk to someone at the other end of the table and stuff pizza in your mouth at the same time. I think it'd be a fine idea to just not have a program sometime, and allow some time to chat, make plans for trips, or whatever, before we screech off to Tobin's. Maybe display some pictures or equipment or something. But I usually get home after meeting night, thinking that I wanted to talk to somebody about something, but just never had time.
I see that our new members include a biologist (Granger Ridout) and a geologist (Paul Osman). Welcome! We're building a fine resume', methinks. Our track record is now public, and another project is in the offing. As John mentions in his article, Bill Glass believes that parts of the Zimmerman mine should also be gated. We can do that. Of course we can.
IN THIS ISSUE:
JOHN MARQUART reports on the North American Bat Symposium.
DON BROUSSARD relays his problems being a diabetic caver.
ANDY WADDINGTON discusses excluding people from caving trips.
DOUG MOORE sings the "Plastic Justrite" song.
MARK TURNER alerts us to another oil spill in Tennessee.
JO SCHAPER describes the Cathedral Cave cleanup.
LOUISE HOSE gives good reasons to remain an NSS member.
October 23 through 24 brought a rare opportunity to the Bloomington, Illinois area. For the first time a national symposium on bat research met here. Illinois Wesleyan University hosted the 26th Annual North American Symposium on Bat Research held at Jumer's Chateau hotel. Over two hundred of the leading experts on bats gave three days of fascinating papers on the frontiers of bat research. I had the pleasure of attending the whole symposium as did Kevin Rasmus. Others of our grotto, including Julie Angel, Jim Jacobs, and Tonja Fraser, attended parts of special interest.
Our Friend Dan Taylor, from Bat Conservation International (BCI) who did so much for the Blackball Mine gating project, was there, as was his boss, Dr. Merlin D. Tuttle, Director of BCI. There were too many interesting talks to elaborate on and too many important people to mention, but I would like to pick out three talks in which our grotto got particular mention in a most complimentary fashion.
Thursday morning Dan and Sheryl Ducummon, Dan's new assistant, talked on "The North American Bats and Mines Project: New Industrial Partnerships Create Habitat for Mine-roosting Bats." They emphasized how a collaborative effort by BCI, governmental agencies, industry, and conservation oriented volunteers can accomplish bat habitat protection projects that would be impossible otherwise. They featured the Blackball Mine project as the premier example and described the role of the Near Normal Grotto in the most flattering terms. They described how our members promoted the project from its beginning and donated about 500 man-hours of work to the erection of the gates alone. They showed slides of the mine project.
The last talk before lunch on Friday was Merlin Tuttle's "Formation of National Bat Conservation Partnership for Natural Resource Managers." Merlin again emphasized the accomplishments that can be realized when a coalition of agencies with volunteers. He used our work at the Blackball Mine as the example of a win-win situation. He said that the payoff of the project was 20 to 1. For every dollar spent by BCI to accomplish the project, 20 dollars more in cash, donated materials, and labor came into the project from government (Illinois Dept. of Natural Resources - IDNR), industry (Unimen Mining), and volunteers (Near Normal Grotto). Later in a separate program held for school teachers on Saturday, Merlin again used the Blackball Mine as a positive example of how people like us help conservation.
Friday evening brought our monthly grotto meeting with an excellent talk by Dr. Sam Panno of Illinois Geological Survey on hydrology problems in the karst area around Waterloo, Illinois. Several attendees of the bat symposium accepted our invitation to come. One was Jim Kennedy, Bat House Research Project Coordinator for BCI. It was interesting to learn what I have been doing wrong such that no bats have moved into my bat house in its four years. I learned that it is built totally wrong as are most commercially made bat houses and that I installed it wrong. I bought it at the gift shop at Mammoth Cave on one of our Cave Restoration Field Camps. If you have a bat house or want to build one, check BCI's booklet "The Bat House Builder's Handbook" by Merlin D. Tuttle and Donna L. Hensley to do it right. Several of our members have copies. Unfortunately, Dan Taylor had to fly home Friday evening or we could have gotten him to come to our meeting. He has certainly been a good friend to us all.
The formal symposium talks ended at 3:00 p.m. on Saturday and it was time to climax the symposium with a special field trip to the Blackball Mine itself. For several weeks I had been consulting with Dr. Tom Griffiths, bat research scientist from Illinois Wesleyan University and the main organizer of the symposium, on such a field trip. Tom thought the idea to be a good one, but wasn't sure how many people would want to stay that late after the symposium ended to go there. As it turned out, the trip was immensely popular and over fifty people drove the 60 miles to see the mine and the gates that we erected last summer. It really make a beautiful climax to an already beautiful symposium and the weather cooperated with dryness and record warmth. We visited the gates on the lower mine and went as far into the upper level to see the gate on the main connecting shaft. Don Coons, Kevin Rasmus, and Tonja Fraser came to help out, as did Bill Glass of IDNR and Sheryl Dunummon and Jim Kennedy of BCI. I had the rare honor of giving the personal tour to Merlin Tuttle. Although BCI has a major role in the gating project, Merlin hadn't personally been there before. He was most complimentary of cavers in general and our grotto in particular. As he told me, "80% of project to protect bats are started by cavers". There were loner bats hanging about in the upper mine and Merlin identified each species at a glance. Being exceptionally warm for this time of year, some bats were still active and members of the group recorded their bat calls with instruments that recorded them and fed data into laptop computers to identify species and the nature of their activities.
I called Dan Taylor a couple days later to talk to him about the symposium and field trip. He said that everyone thought that it was really good. Sheryl Ducummon and Jim Kennedy had gone back to Jumer's after the field trip and said that it was getting excellent comments. Dan also phoned Bill Glass and Bill told him that he definitely wants BCI and our grotto to begin plans for gating parts of the Zimmerman Mine, which also serves as an important hibernaculum. With our ever-increasing renown, there can hardly be any question of the credibility of the Near Normal Grotto as a hard working group dedicated to conservation. Be proud. I am.
P.S. The symposium also gave us some interesting prospects for grotto programs. I invited Tom Griffiths to give his talk "Bats of Illinois" at one of our grotto meetings and he graciously accepted. It would be a good one for our January (Annual Open House) meeting. We'll look into it. Also, I got to know Jim Rowell, who studies and maintains the bats at Brookfield Zoo. He expects that he could arrange a special "behind the scenes" tour of the zoo for us on a VIP basis. How would that be for next spring?
CATHEDRAL CAVE CLEANUP by Jo Schaper
joschaper@aol.com
Last Saturday was another of the never ending cave cleanups in Cathedral Cave, Onondaga Cave State Park, Leasburg, Missouri. 10 volunteers broke concrete, cut coax size wire, and hauled said human introduced stuff out of the cave. We checked on various epoxied speleothems--those glued with the Akemi brand marble glue are still holding,(including the stalactite, as well as those glued with Epon 828. At least one of the mixed pouch epoxies failed--Dan Hazelton is checking his records to see which one it was. Park naturalist Eugene Vale did some powerwashing of the concrete tourist trail in the cave, and an excellent time was had by all except Sahra Marsan's feet. She learned why you *always* break in new leather boots before caving with them. Thanks to all.
dbroussard@mcimail.com
As one of the diabetics who caves, I will add a prejudced viewpoint.
Diabetes is a bad disease to carry underground. I have made a few minor mistakes which helped me to remember to always carry a LOT of extra food. I have made a few major mistakes which I would not have lived through if I had not had the help of close friends. Bill Steele, Logan Mcnatt, Noel Sloanhave each saved my life due to my making a stupid mistake with diabetes. Luck has also played a part in my staying alive.
I do not recommend to other diabetics that they go underground. the few diabetics who were already cavers, I say 'Good Luck!'. Remember the mistakes you make. If it is not your last one, you need to use the mistake to make yourself more careful the next time.
If there are some diabetic cavers out there who wish to learn about my favorite mistakes to learn from please e-mail me directly.
David London makes good points on the diabetes thread, which are really quite applicable to a whole lot of situations where a person is maybe not capable of safely doing a trip.
> Exclude them ... choice is difficult ... and may be necessary
I have to say that in twenty years caving I cannot recall a single case where this has happened. There have been plenty of cases where people have wanted to come on a trip which they have not been suited to, but in almost every case, giving them a bit more knowledge about the trip, and asking them how they think they will cope with the particular difficulties, or the length, or whatever, has resulted in them voluntarily opting out, with no loss of face and no difficult decisions.
That this can be said is a consequence of two things: if the person in question is young or inexperienced, they have never had the chance to believe they might be included in such a trip. At this sort of level, novice cavers are happy to go on the trips selected for them by the more experienced ones. Just avoid over-ambition by proxy. If the person was older or more experienced, the desire to go on a trip was *invariably* motivated by knowing something about the rewards of the trip (such as seeing photos of well-decorated bits) without appreciating the difficulties. Such people are normally aware of their limitations, and quite readily change their mind when given adequate information. In future they tend to read the guidebook more thoroughly in advance !
But I said "in almost every case". There are three cases I recall vividly, in which a caver should have been excluded from a trip, but wasn't: One was a caver who thought that Gingling Hole sounded nice, because of the formations in Fools Paradise. She really wasn't up to the trip, as there are some hard thrutchy bits, a couple of climbs and one particular pitch-head which was rigged to need an exposed step across. However, she wasn't excluded because she wasn't very persuadable, and everyone who might have persuaded her was leaving it to her boyfriend, who didn't feel able to do so. Result: she had an epic, didn't enjoy the trip and caused delay for everyone else. The eventual fall out was a rift in the club (since healed) and a rift in her relationship (permanent). We were perhaps lucky the consequences were not more serious !
Another was a caver who was very competant, but simply hadn't found out about the cave - Marble Sink. Now this is a sustained and tight little hole with several pitches which had a very fierce reputation. On arriving at the entrance, this caver looked at it, poked his head in and said "no-one said it was tight !" He then walked home while everyone else did the trip. He was possibly capable of getting down, but hadn't psyched up for it. Everyone else had assumed he knew what the cave was all about. As soon as he found out, he excluded himself - but at the expense of much effort walking up in a wetsuit.
The third case was a novice, who had succeeded in winding everyone up, and was clearly not a character we wished to have in the club. He took the advice given and came on his first caving trip. Down Link Pot, through the connection to Pippikin, and immediately back again. For those unfamiliar with the cave - this trip would be an awkward fifty foot ladder pitch, a brief bit of big passage, then an interminable low wet crawl, with a couple of very low airspace bits (it was then fairly newly discovered). All done in dry grots (woolies and boilersuit). Then back. Not an enjoyable trip (though safe enough) for the caving, but everyone except this one person enjoyed it immensely. We have never seen him since.
The point of these stories is that failure to exclude someone from a trip which they really shouldn't be on is pretty much always because that person didn't possess enough information to exclude themselves. This is invariably bad for that person. It may also be bad for everyone else -depending on the result you wanted.
> Include them ... will take more effort but will pay off many times if you can do it well.
The best solution to this is to choose appropriate trips. Over time, the caver will build a sufficient awareness of his or her abilities to be able to choose for themselves whether they are capable of a given trip and the difficult decision to exclude someone will never need to be made.
The difficulty in the situation which started this thread is that there is only one choice of trip, and a number of novices. It faces every university club, every October, but usually the majority of novices are of a similar level of fitness, and are a self-selected group who each believe they will enjoy caving. In this case, one caver has a particular difficulty, and an inability to assess that difficulty herself in relation to the proposed trip, because of her ignorance of caving. This situation can result in the one person having a bad time, and potentially endangering everyone else.
In a traditional, non-university club, one would simply take this one person on her own and ensure that there was no feeling of pressure to perform. After all - the purpose of such a trip is to find out what caving is like, not to prove that you are as good at it as everyone else. The people mentioned or involved in this thread already are proof enough that it is quite possible to be a caver with this sort of difficulty. We could mention cavers with much more serious problems than this (blind cavers, wheelchair-bound cave-divers to name a couple - and at least three cavers I know of with artificial limbs).
Unfortunately, the format of the start of the university year makes this much more difficult. The experienced cavers are fully stretched looking after more novices than it is really comfortable to have on a trip. They can do little else if the continuity of the club is to be ensured. It is far too busy a time, both academically and speleologically to suddenly go off and learn a whole raft of new medical knowledge. University clubs are, by their very nature, just at the edge of what they can do in safety at the start of the year. It all gets easier as the initial flush of new members is thinned out by the actual experience (hopefully not too much :-)
One can hope that the novices are progressed sufficiently slowly through the easier grades that there are trips available in a few weeks time which are still easy enough, whilst leaving a bit more time for individual attention. I hope you can make members welcome within the group, even if they have not yet started caving. When they do, they are much more likely to tell you that there is a problem if they are on familiar terms. Far better than waiting until a crisis develops.
I hope that nothing I have said on this thread can be interpreted as being an exhortation to tell anyone that they must not go caving. As always, the best approach is to dispel ignorance and let people realise their own limitations, so they can then either accept them or overcome them, as they see fit.
WHY I STAY AN NSS MEMBER by Louise Hose
hosel@micro.wcmo.edu
My first reaction to Devon's question about why he should stay a member of the NSS is to think, this man must have never been to a convention. After attending an NSS convention, I think, we all better understand what the NSS does for us and the caves and why we are members. Dave Luckins recently said that once a person attends two conventions, they're members for life. I suspect that's pretty much true. So, Devon, if you question why you're a member I suggest you try to attend a convention. As for Devon's specific comments:
o They support cave research.
Yes, we do. I assume that is why most professional North American speleologists and karst researchers are members. There is only a little money given directly to research projects but the annual convention and the Journal provide forums for presenting research. The upcoming joint publication on cave and karst protection with the American Geological Institute is another NSS effort. And, because the NSS is this unique mixture of amateur and professionals, a lot of amateurs become professional speleologists and karst researchers as a direct result of our membership in the NSS. (I did.)
o They purchase caves for protection.
Actually, not quite. The NSS accepts caves as gifts/berequests and then provides for their management.
o They spend a lot of time making publications that I consider to be a major waste of trees
The NSS NEWS that you never read is going through a big change and I am optimistic. Try reading the last issue and you might be very pleasantly surprised. I think Dave Bunnell is going to do great things with the News.....and I'm the first to say it's needed.
THE JOURNAL OF CAVE AND KARST STUDIES (formerly the NSS Bulletin) has also changed. Check out the recently mailed Belize issue and see if you really want to stop receiving it. The MEMBERS MANUAL has been my link to friends and fellow cavers for over 25 years. I carry it everywhere. It's a great resource when a car breaks down in some lonely place. It also helps organize most American-based expeditions. AMERICAN CAVING ACCIDENTS. This publication is a major tool of education for caving safety. I study it each year and look forward to the re-vitalization I expect to see thanks to the efforts of Bill Putnam and Fred Wefer.
o They do absolutely nothing for me personally.
I actually doubt that that statement is true. But, I don't know your involvement in caving. I do know that the NSS has done a tremendous amount for me, personally. Any contributions or impacts I make to caving worldwide partly attest to the worth of the NSS.
o The politics involved are so amazingly thick that I actually get pissed off if I pay any attention at all.
This certainly can be true. I wonder how one comes to know the politics of the NSS better than the work of the NSS. Must be hanging with the wrong group! (It has been my recent experience that sometimes the folks who complain the most about "politics" in caving are the ones pulling the most political shenanigans!)
o The NSS "feels" like a dinosaur to me
I never felt a dinosaur. Can't comment except that I don't "feel" like a dinosaur.
o They act as a central point of publishing for books.
My observation is that the publications of the NSS generally give better information than privately published books. The immense popularity of On Rope and the excitement over Cave Minerals of the World, 2nd Edition demonstrate their value. I expect to be proud to be a member of the organization that publishes Cave Minerals next year.
o They are a good starting point for people wanting to know how to get started. But does anyone really use this resource?
You bet! Thousands of us. We are also the folks that government agencies and private landowners in the U.S rely on. We are the only organization that has successfully (despite the politics) balanced exploration, science, and conservation for 50 years. There are other organizations that try to find niches as cave preservationists or cave scientists and some do good work. But, I believe, all the successful ones in the U.S. anchor themselves on the NSS. I don't know of any other group concerned with wild areas that better understand that you have to balance recreational use (and true exploration), research, and preservation interests. Most groups can only advocate for one interest. The NSS is remarkable because it has always stood as a viable advocate for all these interests.
You say you know of leaner, more successful organizations. Maybe there are a few. But, there are very few. We only have two paid staff members and no paid officers. I think if all the facts are known, it would be very difficult to find another organization with only two staff members who does (and accomplishes) so much.
The NSS is a national organization. While our members network does have a strong international presence (this Digest started with American cavers who knew each other through their NSS membership...think about that when you call us dinosaurs), we mostly work on American issues. If you don't like our publications, we probably don't offer a lot to cavers outside North America. That's not our goal. But, I believe the NSS is critically important to North American caves, cavers, and caving. American cavers all need to belong. And, when the Society goes off in the wrong direction, get involved and steer it right. Put your time in the barrel. That's what I did when I got pissed off enough to consider quitting the NSS. It's been a rewarding experience.
(Nashville, Tennessee)
HEMIMORPHITE@delphi.com
Details are sketchy at the moment, but apparently Colonial has had yet another problem with a pipeline in Tennessee...this time near the Middle Fork of the Stones River near Murfreesboro, Rutherford County Tennessee..
They have mobilized a response team and have called in drill rigs to do some hard rock drilling in order to "locate pockets of product"..
Early reports indicate that they had a break in their diesel fuel product line and that much of it wound up in a sinkhole... Video shot from a helicopter for the 10 pm news on Channel 4 news here in Nastyville showed newly carved dirt roads near a stream along a stretch of 765Kv powerlines, but not much else...
PLASTIC JUSTRITE (To the tune of "Plastic Jesus")
Justrite's got a new device,
superior performance, economical price,
construction unexcelled in quality.
It has an unadjustable water drip,
a styrofoam felt and a plastic tip,
and other blessings of technology.
(chorus)
Plastic Justrite, plastic Justrite,
melted on the front of my hard hat.
Should've known better than to go and trust you,
if I ever get out I'm goin' to bust you,
underneath my Jeep I'll squash you flat.
Sittin' in a cave as black as midnight,
'cause I got a brand new plastic Justright,
melted on the front of my hard hat.
The lamp was fine, it was workin' OK,
I was truckin' down a virgin passageway,
when it belched and melted out, and that was that.
(chorus)
Like I said, it may not be perfect - but it should be close.
Doug Moore - NSS 15244
September 27, 1996
Called to order at 7:10pm by President John Marquart. Present: David S. Carson, Angela Carson, Randy Wahlfeldt, Dan Wahlfeldt, Tonja Fraser, Mark Valentine, Brian Valentine, Richard Bell, Len Storm, Lara Storm, Chris Dinesen, Kevin Rasmus, Marty Jacobs, Jim Jacobs, Brian R. Braye, Tim Sickbert, Norm Rogers, Beth Reinke.
OFFICER REPORTS: The minutes of previous meetings were approved as printed in the Near Normal News. The treasury report was read by Vice President Beth Reinke in place of Julie Angel, who was absent.
OLD BUSINESS: A survey was handed out to members for them to comment on what they like about our meetings, and changes that they would like to see. Results at the next meeting. Jim handed out the proposed "Common Adventurer" statement (adapted from the ISU Outdoor Program), which, if adopted, must be signed by all members and guests.
NEW BUSINESS: Larry Byrd brought etchings which had been made of the BlackBall Mine area. The artist's name was not immediately available. He understood that we could reproduce these for sale to supplement the grotto treasury. The membership seemed to think it was a good idea, but proposed that we get a clear statement from the artist as to our rights and responsibilities in the matter before proceding. John Marquart noted that articles and graphics from the Near Normal News had again been included in the Speleo Digest. The grotto voted to agree in principle to contribute to a memorial to Armin Krueger, subject to approval of the details.
PLANNED TRIPS AND ANNOUNCEMENTS: Brian Valentine gave us his new address: 7150 N. Terra Vista Dr., Apt. 1007, Peoria, IL 61614. He and his bride were able to visit a number of caves on their honeymoon such as Meramec Caverns, Onondaga, Fischer and Bat Caves. Tonja Fraser reported that she still carried bruises from the Wayne's Lost trip, but she is ready to go back! Chris Dinesen seconded that emotion. Tim Sickbert and Tim Shaffer stayed over that night and dropped Shaft Cave. Norm Rogers announced a weekend cleanup camp at Mammoth Cave in January, but details were not yet available. The North American Bat Symposium will be hosted by Illinois Wesleyan University at Jumer's in Bloomington, IL, October 23-26, and will include a saturday field trip to BlackBall to view our handywork. Grotto members may attend a limited number of presentations without charge. There will be cave trips on Saturday, November 2 around Waterloo, IL followed by an Illinois Speleological Survey Meeting on Sunday.
NEXT MEETING: Friday, October 25. Program: Dr. Sam Panno of the Illinois State Geological Survey will present a program on the geology of southern Illinois around Waterloo. Beth will send out meeting reminder postcards.
The meeting was then adjourned and the members reassembled at the Upper Limits Climbing Gym. All had a great time!
Respectfully submitted,
Jim Jacobs, secretary
10/25/96
Called to order at 7:10 by President John R. Marquart. Present: Tonja Fraser, Tim Sickbert, Kevin Rasmus, Len Storm, Lara Storm, Beth Reinke, John Walther, Paul Osman, Rick Toosy, Julie Angel, Jim Angel, Sam Panno, Jim Jacobs, Dan Wahlfeldt, Randy Wahlfeldt, Rich Bell.
OFFICER REPORTS. The reports of the Treasurer and the Secretary were read and approved.
OLD BUSINESS. Results of the Member Survey which had been handed out at the last meeting were discussed.
NEW BUSINESS. John Walther presented, and asked members to sign a petition to save the ISU Outdoor Program, which is threatened by budget cuts. New members Chris Dinesen of the Illinois Dept. of Natural Resources, Granger Ridout, a biologists from Murray State University, Murray Kentucky, and Paul Osman, a geologist with the Illinois Dept. of Natural Resources were welcomed. The current sitting officers were renominated for office in 1997. The floor was opened, but no other nominations were made. We will vote next meeting. Nominations may also be made at that time. Jim J. announced that a new grotto, the Sub-Urban Chicago Grotto (#408) had been recently formed by Gary Gibula, Steve Petruniak and Kevin Prather.
TRIP REPORTS. Tonja reported on a trip to Illinois Caverns, as did John Walther. Lara talked about her mapping trip in southern Illinois with Phil Moss and the Illinois Speleological Survey.
ANNOUNCEMENTS. John M. reported on the North American Bat Conference, and noted that there would be a field trip at the conclusion of the conference (tomorrow afternoon). NNG'rs were encouraged to go to act as guides. The Illinois Speleological Survey meeting will be Nov. 3, with cave trips on the 2nd. The deadline for NNN article submission was set at Nov. 8. There will be a weekend cleanup at Mammoth Cave in January. The dates are yet to be determined. Tonja will be taking a trip to Illinois Caverns on Nov. 3. Kevin Rasmus will go to Sullivan Cave (IN) on the 10th. The next meeting will be on Nov. 22. Adjourned.
Dr. Sam Panno, a geologist with the Illinois State Geological Survey presented a wonderful program on hydrology studies in karst areas of southern Illinois.
Respectfully submitted,
Jim Jacobs, secretary